The Smash Challenge

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Exstrange le Jeu 13 Sep - 14:23

Alexandre.M a écrit:Ok ... Y'a pas de combo Mustache Laughing

Au lieu de me faire passer pour un demeuré, explique tes propos!!!

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Fullrouge le Jeu 13 Sep - 14:39

y a that combo !!!!
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Alexandre.M le Jeu 13 Sep - 14:42

On est bien d'accord une combo est un enchainement de coup dont l'adversaire de ne sait pas parer ? Si oui il y'a des combos de 5 a 7 hit qui te font sortir de la map Surprised
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  MatF le Jeu 13 Sep - 14:45

Alexandre.M a écrit:On est bien d'accord une combo est un enchainement de coup dont l'adversaire de ne sait pas parer ? Si oui il y'a des combos de 5 a 7 hit qui te font sortir de la map Surprised

Sur le coup, je suis plutôt d'accord qu'il a pleins de combos dans les Smash.

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Exstrange le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:00

Je te met au défi de m'en placer ne fut-ce qu'une seule...

C'est le genre de truc impossible à placer à un gars qui sait un minimum jouer...

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Joey le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:01

Même moi je sais appuyer sur le bouton 'protection', c'est pour dire Very Happy
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Exstrange le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:03

@Joey: J'allais y venir
Joey est l'archétype même du noob à ce jeu, et ce n'est pourtant pas possible de lui placer une "combo".

Enfin bref, vivement la semaine prochaine que je puisse gagner des boosters Very Happy

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Joey le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:04

Tu fais quand même pas le malin contre le noob en handicap 3-9 Laughing
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Alexandre.M le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:04

Perso quand je vois les pro players de SSBB y'a des combo qui win hein Very Happy Suffit de savoir les placer ... même si je n'y arrive pas j'essayerais Very Happy

Comme tu dis vivement la semaine prochaine Cool
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Joey le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:06

Je suis dispo mardi/mercredi/jeudi à n'importe quelle heure de la journée/soirée. Si vous voulez un coverage, je serai là Smile
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Exstrange le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:12

Déjà, notre défis est sur SSBM et pas SSBB, mais soit.

En effet, vivement.

@Joey: Mais d'office !!! Il faut qqn pour commenter les combats massacres Very Happy

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Finalement, on peut dire que Jeanne d'Arc aussi était femme au foyer...
... Surtout vers la fin...

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Christoune le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:32

Moi je dis se protéger c'est pour les faibles.
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  MoTo le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:36

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

allez je quote les parties les plus importantes

Introducing...the Scrub
In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.


Historical Scrub: Neville Chamberlain. He didn't even try to win, instead offering "appeasement" to Hitler. (Caution: not serious historical commentary.)
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn't attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design--it's meant to be there--yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You're not going to see a classic scrub throw his opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize his chances of winning? Here we've encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you...that's cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that's cheap, too. We've covered that one. If you sit in block for 50 seconds doing no moves, that's cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)

Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.


Historical Scrubs: The British Redcoats. The ultimate example of being too bound up by rules to actually fight. They fought "honorably" in a row. (Caution: not serious historical commentary.).
Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about "skill" and how he has skill whereas other players--very much including the ones who beat him flat out--do not have skill. The confusion here is what "skill" actually is. In Street Fighter, scrubs often cling to combos as a measure of skill. A combo is sequence of moves that are unblockable if the first move hits. Combos can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take "skill," according to the scrub. The "dragon punch" or "uppercut" in Street Fighter is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any scrub and they will tell you that a dragon punch is a "skill move." Just last week I played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with "no skill moves" while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him 5 times in a row asking, "is that all you know how to do? throw?" I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, "Play to win, not to do ˜difficult moves.'" This was a big moment in that scrub's life. He could either write his losses off and continue living in his mental prison, or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I've never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I've also never seen a prize for a player who played "in an innovative way." Many scrubs have strong ties to "innovation." They say "that guy didn't do anything new, so he is no good." Or "person x invented that technique and person y just stole it." Well, person y might be 100 times better than person x, but that doesn't seem to matter. When person y wins the tournament and person x is a forgotten footnote, what will the scrub say? That person y has "no skill" of course.
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Andora le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:44

Hadooooooken!
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  MatF le Jeu 13 Sep - 15:51

En gros, selon Sirlin, on pourrait dire que MTG compétitif est un jeu de scrubs.
MTG compétitif choisit de bannir certaines cartes qui ont été créé dans le jeu, mais certaines personnes ont dit "Black lotus/Ponder, c'est trop fort/cheap, donc on les banni".
En gros, la DCI construit des règles qu'elles considère "fair" et ne joue pas le jeu qui a été réellement design par les créateurs du jeu.
Marrant de penser à MTG compétitif après avoir lu ça
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Adonais le Jeu 13 Sep - 17:47

@Exstrange: N'oublies pas de me prévenir pour le massacre Very Happy

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Adonais le Mer 19 Sep - 15:10

Ce n'est donc plus d'actualité ? :'(

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  dilandu le Mer 19 Sep - 18:17

Adonais a écrit:@Exstrange: N'oublies pas de me prévenir pour le massacre Very Happy


Stop faire le Léche cul
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Adonais le Mer 19 Sep - 18:27

dilandu a écrit:
Adonais a écrit:@Exstrange: N'oublies pas de me prévenir pour le massacre Very Happy


Stop faire le Léche cul

Stop dire des conneries Very Happy

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Nexus le Mer 19 Sep - 18:42

Sisi je prète un smash bros. dmain a alex histoire qu'il peut refaire une mise a niveau et il sera prèt dans une tite semaine apparament ^^ (ps: c ma faute lundi j'allais lui preter smash bros mais jai oublier mes 3 smash bros chez moi :'( :p)
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Adonais le Mer 19 Sep - 18:43

Ah la loose :p

ps: Tu vas prendre au Sphinx tes jeux avec toi ? Oo

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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Nexus le Mer 19 Sep - 18:45

non non je le vois demain déjà Smile
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Fred le Mer 19 Sep - 20:37

Nexus a écrit: ...il sera prèt dans une tite semaine apparemment...

Il s'entraîne dans "la salle de l'esprit et du temps" ?
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Nexus le Mer 19 Sep - 20:44

Pire il s'entraine chez lui xD
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Re: The Smash Challenge

Message  Exstrange le Mer 19 Sep - 22:02

Fred a écrit:
Il s'entraîne dans "la salle de l'esprit et du temps" ?

Laughing

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Re: The Smash Challenge

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